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	<title>Comments on: Language, identity and Wikipedia: Some perspectives from the Cairo &#8220;Wikipedia in the Arab World&#8221; workshop</title>
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	<link>http://hblog.org/2012/11/01/language-identity-and-wikipedia-some-perspectives-from-the-cairo-wikipedia-in-the-arab-world-workshop/</link>
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		<title>By: Heather Ford</title>
		<link>http://hblog.org/2012/11/01/language-identity-and-wikipedia-some-perspectives-from-the-cairo-wikipedia-in-the-arab-world-workshop/#comment-10411</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Heather Ford]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Nov 2012 08:01:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hblog.org/?p=845#comment-10411</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[So true, Dror. I&#039;m definitely going to take a look at earlier debates on similar topics! Thanks for sharing this!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So true, Dror. I&#8217;m definitely going to take a look at earlier debates on similar topics! Thanks for sharing this!</p>
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		<title>By: Dror Kamir</title>
		<link>http://hblog.org/2012/11/01/language-identity-and-wikipedia-some-perspectives-from-the-cairo-wikipedia-in-the-arab-world-workshop/#comment-10074</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dror Kamir]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Nov 2012 20:50:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hblog.org/?p=845#comment-10074</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Wikipedia causes such old conflicts to surface, that is, if they are not fully resolved. This is why the linguistic issues turn into serious debates among Arabic-speaking Wikipedians but not among Turkish- or Greek-speakers. The Arabic-speaking world has a delicate unstable status quo, whereas Turkey and Greece have reached a stable status quo.
Actually, I think Wikipedia here functions exactly like previous arts and technologies that were introduced into the Arab world in the past 100 years or so. The question of whether plays should be written and performed in Classical Arabic or in the popular Masri dialect was a serious matter of debate when dramatic arts became popular in the Arab world some 100 or 150 years ago. When the genre of short stories was borrowed by Arab writers, it was again a matter of debate whether dialogs can be written in the local vernacular rather than in Classical Arabic.
So, basically, in my opinion, Wikipedia is another rock that stirs the water. True, the scientific nature of the articles makes the Classical language more appropriate according to common standards, but the fact that it is edited by the &quot;crowd&quot; (rather than a group of professionals) challenges (yet again) these standards, and makes this old debate resurface.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wikipedia causes such old conflicts to surface, that is, if they are not fully resolved. This is why the linguistic issues turn into serious debates among Arabic-speaking Wikipedians but not among Turkish- or Greek-speakers. The Arabic-speaking world has a delicate unstable status quo, whereas Turkey and Greece have reached a stable status quo.<br />
Actually, I think Wikipedia here functions exactly like previous arts and technologies that were introduced into the Arab world in the past 100 years or so. The question of whether plays should be written and performed in Classical Arabic or in the popular Masri dialect was a serious matter of debate when dramatic arts became popular in the Arab world some 100 or 150 years ago. When the genre of short stories was borrowed by Arab writers, it was again a matter of debate whether dialogs can be written in the local vernacular rather than in Classical Arabic.<br />
So, basically, in my opinion, Wikipedia is another rock that stirs the water. True, the scientific nature of the articles makes the Classical language more appropriate according to common standards, but the fact that it is edited by the &#8220;crowd&#8221; (rather than a group of professionals) challenges (yet again) these standards, and makes this old debate resurface.</p>
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		<title>By: Heather Ford</title>
		<link>http://hblog.org/2012/11/01/language-identity-and-wikipedia-some-perspectives-from-the-cairo-wikipedia-in-the-arab-world-workshop/#comment-10061</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Heather Ford]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Nov 2012 18:54:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hblog.org/?p=845#comment-10061</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[So interesting, thanks for sharing, Dror :) I&#039;m trying to work out what makes this new/interesting from a Wikipedia perspective i.e. What does Wikipedia show us about the language conflicts that we didn&#039;t know before, for instance (if anything)... But it&#039;s really helpful to hear other stories of languages that face similar challenges.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So interesting, thanks for sharing, Dror <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  I&#8217;m trying to work out what makes this new/interesting from a Wikipedia perspective i.e. What does Wikipedia show us about the language conflicts that we didn&#8217;t know before, for instance (if anything)&#8230; But it&#8217;s really helpful to hear other stories of languages that face similar challenges.</p>
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		<title>By: Dror Kamir</title>
		<link>http://hblog.org/2012/11/01/language-identity-and-wikipedia-some-perspectives-from-the-cairo-wikipedia-in-the-arab-world-workshop/#comment-10012</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dror Kamir]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Nov 2012 12:11:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hblog.org/?p=845#comment-10012</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The debate about the role and status of Masri (Egyptian Arabic) vis-à-vis Classical/Standard Arabic is at least 100 years old. I think it has to do with the general notion of literacy. The phenomenon of widespread literacy reached the Middle East rather late - around the turn of the 20th century. Until then, reading/writing was still perceived as a proficiency that not everyone needs to master (like programming today - we all use computer programs this way or another, but only professional programmers know how to actually write the code).

In Turkey, Attatürk launched a sweeping linguistic revolution, switching to the Latin alphabet, enforcing a different language style, and making the new literacy system available to the entire public. Greece also experienced controversies over the appropriate literal language - whether it should be &quot;Katharevousa&quot; or the popular dialect &quot;Dimotiki&quot;.

The Arabic-speaking world remained in a diglotic state, but it is hardly surprising that this state-of-affairs is being challenged repeatedly, especially as technology constantly pushes toward widespread literacy, namely toward reducing the gap between the literate language and the common vernacular.

From my experience, Egyptians are less comfortable with this state of diglossia than other Arabic-speakers. This probably has to do with the fact that Egyptian Arabic acquired more prestige over the years. A speaker of African American Vernacular English would be more comfortable if he was told that he had to learn Latin at school in order to be literate. He probably noticed in an early age that his vernacular is not widely accepted, and he knew he would have to learn a new language at school. An English speaker from Oxford might wonder why he must use Latin in writing rather than his native English, which is so widely accepted anyway.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The debate about the role and status of Masri (Egyptian Arabic) vis-à-vis Classical/Standard Arabic is at least 100 years old. I think it has to do with the general notion of literacy. The phenomenon of widespread literacy reached the Middle East rather late &#8211; around the turn of the 20th century. Until then, reading/writing was still perceived as a proficiency that not everyone needs to master (like programming today &#8211; we all use computer programs this way or another, but only professional programmers know how to actually write the code).</p>
<p>In Turkey, Attatürk launched a sweeping linguistic revolution, switching to the Latin alphabet, enforcing a different language style, and making the new literacy system available to the entire public. Greece also experienced controversies over the appropriate literal language &#8211; whether it should be &#8220;Katharevousa&#8221; or the popular dialect &#8220;Dimotiki&#8221;.</p>
<p>The Arabic-speaking world remained in a diglotic state, but it is hardly surprising that this state-of-affairs is being challenged repeatedly, especially as technology constantly pushes toward widespread literacy, namely toward reducing the gap between the literate language and the common vernacular.</p>
<p>From my experience, Egyptians are less comfortable with this state of diglossia than other Arabic-speakers. This probably has to do with the fact that Egyptian Arabic acquired more prestige over the years. A speaker of African American Vernacular English would be more comfortable if he was told that he had to learn Latin at school in order to be literate. He probably noticed in an early age that his vernacular is not widely accepted, and he knew he would have to learn a new language at school. An English speaker from Oxford might wonder why he must use Latin in writing rather than his native English, which is so widely accepted anyway.</p>
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		<title>By: Heather Ford</title>
		<link>http://hblog.org/2012/11/01/language-identity-and-wikipedia-some-perspectives-from-the-cairo-wikipedia-in-the-arab-world-workshop/#comment-10005</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Heather Ford]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Nov 2012 11:26:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hblog.org/?p=845#comment-10005</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thank you, Kamal! Thanks for your help in making it happen :)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you, Kamal! Thanks for your help in making it happen <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Kamal Elgazzar</title>
		<link>http://hblog.org/2012/11/01/language-identity-and-wikipedia-some-perspectives-from-the-cairo-wikipedia-in-the-arab-world-workshop/#comment-10004</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kamal Elgazzar]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Nov 2012 11:18:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hblog.org/?p=845#comment-10004</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Wonderful article that describes some main problems opposing the rise of Wikipedia Arabic. Good Job Heather Ford :)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wonderful article that describes some main problems opposing the rise of Wikipedia Arabic. Good Job Heather Ford <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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